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Ancestry of the Lords Dinham: Fiss(h)acre of Morleigh, Devon

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Hello All,

An article by C. Demain-Saunders in The Genealogists' Magazine
(Dec. 1934) on 'The Early Maynards of Devon and St. Albans' includes
related information on the Lords Dinham, ca. 1400, and (not shown as
directly related) the family of Fissacre, or Fishacre, of Fishacre,
Wadeton and Moreleigh, Devon [1]. Due to a number of errors in this
article with regard to the Fissacre family, Colonel F. B. Prideaux
wrote a reply correcting and expanding on the subject in a
subsequent issue, as follows:

' Colonel F. B. Prideaux writes with regard to the pedigree of
Fishacre, Genealogists’ Magazine, Vol. 6, p. 626:
" Miss Demain Saunders would appear to have overlooked a
quotation given by Sir William Pole in his Collections
Towards a Description of the County of Devon - see p. 300
of the edition published by a descendant of Sir William
in 1791. The quotation says that Alice (wife of John
Ufflet) and Joan (wife of 1. John Holwey and of 2. John
Maynard) were daughters and co-heirs, not, as Miss
Saunders supposed, of Sir Martin Fishacre of Morlegh, but
of that Sir Martin who was of Fishacre and Wadeton, the
son of Ivo; this quotation was given without naming the
source from which Pole had it, but it was clearly taken,
judging from its language, from a record, still existent
in 1631, of an Assise of Mort’ Ancestor brought by the
sisters or their guardian late in Edward III’s time
against an unknown defendant, to recover (as they
successfully did) possession of the manor of Morlegh.
The quotation describes the sisters, Alice and Joan, as
' cousins and next heirs of Sir Martin Fishacre (of
Morlegh), namely daughters and heirs of Martin
Fishacre, son of Ivo, son of William, son of Giles,
son of Sir William, the brother of Peter, the
father of Sir Martin Fishacre.'
" The Fine of 10 Edward II mentioned by Pole is still
at the Record Office - an abstract of it is printed in
Vol. 2, page 159, of Feet of Fines, Devon, published by
the Devon and Cornwall Record Society. The Episcopal
Registers of Exeter show the following persons to have
held the manor and advowson :
" In 1299 and 1313, Sir Peter de Fishacre.
" 1328, Isabella de Fissacre.
" 1350 and 1354, Dame Margaret de Uredale.
" 1359, Sir Guy de Bryan, guardian of the heir of
Sir Oliver de Dynham.
" 1362, hac vice King Edward III, guardian of the
heir of Isabella Fyshacre.
" 1391, illa vice Sir William Asthorpe (he was
the husband of Margaret, daughter of Oliver
de Dynham).
" 1414, Joan, daughter of Martyn de Fyshacre, and
John Ufflet.
" There is still one problem about the families which
I find difficult to solve. Why did Martin de Fishacre
introduce Dame Margaret de Uredale as the first to
inherit Morlegh after the death of his sister Isabella?
William de Morlegh held 4 knights’ fees in 1242 (Testa
de N.). In 1284-6 Peter de Fishacre held these estates.
I suggest that Margaret’s mother was the sister of
William and Peter de Fishacre. " [2]

In fact, Col. Prideaux was correct as to his suggestion
concerning the relationship of 'Dame Margaret de Uredale' to the
Fissacre family: this was in fact Margaret de Hydon, daughter of Sir
Richard de Hydon of Clyst Hidon, Clayhidon and Hemyock, Devon
(d. bef 24 Mar 1291/2) and his wife Isabel/Isabella de Fissacre.
Margaret subsequently married (2ndly) Sir Gilbert de Knoville (d. 20
Jan 1313/4), and (3rdly) Sir Piers d'Uvedale, Lord Uvedale (d. bef 2
May 1336) [3]. It was therefore 'Dame Margaret d'Uvedale', née de
Hidon (d. 15 May 1357) who held the manor and advowson of Morleigh,
Devon in 1350 and 1354.

The following chart reflects the relationships set forth in the
assise of mort d'ancestor (14th cent.) and the Episcopal Registers
of Exeter concerning the manor and advowson of Morleigh, Devon. A
detailed pedigree of the descendants of Sir Martin de Fissacre (fl.
ca. 1200) is given at the end of this post. Known descendants
(through descent from the Lords Dinham) include the following:

1. William Asfordby

2. William Bladen

3. Charles Calvert, 3rd Lord Calvert

4. Sir Anthony Eden, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom,
1955-1957 (later Lord Avon)

5. William Farrar

6. Mary Launce

7. Sir William Pole of Shute, Devon (d. 10 Mar 1634/5)

8. William Skepper

9. Maria Johanna Somerset


Cheers,

John *

_____________________________________________________

FISSACRE of Morleigh, Devon
<M> designates tenant of the manor
and advowson of Morleigh - Note [2]


William de Wadeton
of Morleigh, Devon
I
I
Sir Martin de Fissacre = Isabel de Wadeton
fl. temp. K. John I
_______________________________I_____________
I I
Sir William de Fissacre Peter de Fissacre
of Fishacre and Wadeton, Devon of Morleigh, Devon
I I
I _____________________________I________
I I I I
Sir Giles Sir Peter Sir Martin Sir Richard = Isabel
d. bef 4 Sep d. aft 1312 d. aft de Hydon I <M>
1305 <M> 13 Jan 1315 I
I I
I I
William (1) Sir Josce = Margaret
I d. 130 Mar 1300/1 I de Hydon <M>
I ______________________I___
I I I
Ivo Sir John de Dinham Oliver Sir Guy
d. aft 1331 d. bef 15 Apr 1332 d. 1346 de Brien
I I I I <M>
I I I I
Sir Martin de Sir John de Dinham Oliver = Joan
Fissacre d. 7 Jan 1382/3 d. 1351 I
_______I______ I _______________I________
I I I I I I I
Alice Joan <M> Sir John Oliver Margaret others
= John =1) John de Dinham = Sir William
Ufflet Holway d. 1428 de Asthorpe <M>
<M> 2) John
Maynard

~ I should note, there is one reference to the Fissacre/Fishacre
family that I have not yet been able to locate:

"Hugh R. Watkin, Morleigh and the family of de Fissacre"
(Devon & Cornwall Notes & Queries, 13:5 (1925) pp. 226-231).

It is possible that nothing other than what Col. Prideaux
provided is given in that article. However, should anyone have
access to same, any further documentation concerning the above
(or details provided below) would be most welcome.


NOTES

[1] C. Demain-Saunders, The Early Maynards of Devon and St. Albans
(The Genealogists' Magazine, Vol. 6, No. 12 (Dec. 1934)), p. 591
et seq.

[2] Col. F. B. Prideaux, Notes and News 'with regard to the pedigree
of Fishacre,' (The Genealogists' Magazine, Vol. 7, No. 10 (June,
1937)), pp. 536-7.

[3] CP IV:371-2, sub Dinham or Dinaunt.


_________________________________________________

DESCENDANTS of Sir Martin de Fissacre, of Fissacre and Wadeton


1 Sir Martin de Fissacre
----------------------------------------

of Coomb Fishacre, Devon

'Moreleigh had come to the Fisshacres through the marriage of Sir
Martin Fisshacre (temp. King John) with Isabel, daughter and heir
of William de Wadeton.' [ Gen. Mag. VI:624[1]]

Spouse: Isabel de Wadeton
Father: William de Wadeton

Children: Sir William [1.1]
Peter [1.2]


1.1 Sir William de Fissacre
----------------------------------------

of Fishacre and Wadeton, Devon

cf. Gen. Mag. VII:536-7[2]

Children: Sir Giles (-<1305)


1.1.1 Sir Giles de Fissacre
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 4 Sep 1305[3]

of Fishacre and Wadeton, Devon

'Giles de Fishacre sum'd from Devon to serve agst. Welsh 21 Nov. 1294 (P.R.)
Giles de Fishacre sum'd from Devon to serve agst. Scots 24 June 1301 (P.W.).
witness to charter re: lands at Ermington, Devon, May 1302
'He seeks to replevy his land and that of his w. Isabel at Ridmor, taken for
default, 15 May 1302.
Going to Scotland to K[ing]. with Wm. Martyn, he has respite of aid in
Devon 16 May 1303 (C.R.).
The heir of Giles de Fhisacre [sic] holds 1/2 Kt. Fee at Hoo, Devon
late of Hen. de la Pomeray, 4 Sep. 1305 (Inq.).' [Knights II:26-27[3]]

cf. Gen. Mag. VII:536-7[2]

Children: William


1.1.1.1 William de Fissacre
----------------------------------------

of Fishacre and Wadeton, Devon

cf. Gen. Mag. VII:536-7[2]

Children: Ivo (->1331)


1.1.1.1.1 Ivo de Fissacre
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1331[4]

of Fishacre and Wadeton, Devon

record of the Brixham lay subsidy of 1332:
'Ivo de Fisshacre [Coleton Fishacre] 2s '[4]

cf. Gen. Mag. VII:536-7[2]

Children: Sir Martin


1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir Martin de Fissacre
----------------------------------------

of Fishacre and Wadeton, Devon

cf. Gen. Mag. VII:536-7[2]

Children: Alice
Joan


1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Alice de Fissacre
----------------------------------------

coheiress of Fishacre and Wadeton, Devon

cf. Gen. Mag. VI:626[1] ; VII:536-7[2]

Spouse: John Ufflet


1.1.1.1.1.1.2a Joan de Fissacre*
----------------------------------------

coheiress of Fishacre and Wadeton, Devon

'Joan, daughter of Martyn de Fyshacre, and John Ufflet', held the
manor and advowson of Moreleigh, 1414 [F. B. Prideaux, Gen. Mag. VII:537,
cites Episcopal Registers of Exeter[2]]

she m. 1stly John Holway,
2ndly John Maynard[1]

cf. Gen. Mag. VI:626[1] ; VII:536-7[2]

Spouse: John Holway[1],[2]

Children: William


1.1.1.1.1.1.2a.1 William Holway
----------------------------------------

heir of his mother

cf. Gen. Mag. VI:626[1] ; VII:536-7[2]


1.2 Peter de Fissacre
----------------------------------------

of Moreleigh, Devon

cf. Gen. Mag. VI:624-6[1]

Children: Sir Peter (->1312)
Sir Martin (->1315)
Isabel


1.2.1 Sir Peter de Fissacre
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1312, d.s.p.[2]

of Moreleigh, Devon

Attorney of Oliver de Dinham, 5 April 1297; and of his son Josce ("Joceus")
de Dinham, 25 March 1300/01 [Knights II:27, cites P.R.[3]]

'Sir Peter de Fishacre', held the manor and advowson of Moreleigh, 1299;
1313 [F. B. Prideaux, Gen. Mag. VII:537, cites Episcopal Registers of
Exeter[2]]

2nd husband of Isabel de Okeston[19]

" Fishacre, Sr Peter de, Kt.
Com'r in Devon 4 June 1291 and 1292. Attorney of Oliver de Dynham 5 Ap.
1297, and of Joceus de Dynham 25 Mar. 1301 (P.R.). Having L20 lands in
Corn., sum'd to serve overseas 7 Jy. 1297, and to Council at Rochester
8 Sep. 1297 (P.W.). Sr Peter de Fishacre, Kt., witnesses charter re
lands at Ermington, Devon, 13 Sep. 1301 (Cart.R.). Peter de Fissake holds
1/2 Kt. Fee at Inheswork, Corn., late of Edm., E. of Cornwall, 26 Sep.
1300 (Inq.). Sum'd from Devon to serve agst. Scots 24 June 1301 (P.W.)."
[Knights II:27[3]]

Spouse: Joan de Okeston [widow of Sir Richard de Champernoun] [19]


1.2.2 Sir Martin de Fissacre
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 13 Jan 1315, d.s.p.[14]

of Moreleigh, Devon

charter for a market and fair at Moreleigh on Tuesdays, granted 13
Jan 1316, by King Edward II to Martin de Fisshacre
'To be held at the manor' [CChR, 1300-26, p. 306][14]

cf. Gen. Mag. VI:624-6[1]


1.2.3 Isabel de Fissacre
----------------------------------------

'Isabella de Fissacre', held the manor and advowson of Moreleigh,
1328 [F. B. Prideaux, Gen. Mag. VII:537, cites Episcopal Registers
of Exeter[2]]

Spouse: Sir Richard de Hydon
Death: bef 24 Mar 1291[3]
Father: John de Hydon (->1274)

Children: Margaret (-1357)


1.2.3.1 Margaret de Hydon
----------------------------------------
Death: 15 May 1357[5]
Burial: Hemyock chapel

had the manor of Hemyock, co. Devon as her maritagium or inheritance[6]

she and her husband Josce de Dinham held ' Hydon and Clyst
Manors, Devon, as 6 1/2 Kt. Fees, late of Hugh de
Curtenay, 24 Mar. 1292 (Inq.)' Knights I:296[3]

'Dame Margaret de Uredale [sic]', held the manor and advowson of Moreleigh,
1350; 1354 [F. B. Prideaux, Gen. Mag. VII:537, cites Episcopal Registers of
Exeter[2]]

she evidently passed certain lands to her great-granddaughter Margaret
de Dinham on her death (Hemyock and Hydon, Devon), either as
inheritance or intended for her maritagium.

*identified by John Ravilious in error as a second (or subsequent) wife,
and not the mother of Sir John de Dinham (J. Ravilious, 'Correction to CP:
Dinham, Lord Dinham', Society of Medieval Genealogy, 16 May 2002[7]).
This was due to the passing of Hemyock and Hidon to Margaret de Hydon's
great-granddaughter Margaret de Dinham.
Her grandson John, Lord Dinham (b. before 14 April 1318, d. 7 Jan 1382/3)
was her heir, according to her IPM:
" Item dicunt quod Johannes Dynham etatis xxx annorum et amplius
est heres propinquor ejusdem Margarete. Et dicunt quod predicta
Margareta Douvedale obiit xv' die mensis Maii anno predicto. "
[CP IV:372 note (e), cites Ch. Inq.p.m., Edw. III, file 137, no. 13[5]]

'In the late 13th Century, Margaret Hidon inherited the Manors of Hemyock
and Clayhidon from her father Sir Richard Hidon, and the Manors of
Morleigh and Storridge from her mother Isabel (née Fisacre).'[8]
[cf. F. B. Prideaux, Gen. Mag. VII:537, re: manor and advowson of
Moreleigh[2]]

re: her first husband, Sir Josce de Dinham:

knight, of Hartland, co. Devon, Buckland Denham, co. Somerset and Cardinham,
Cornwall[5]
2nd Lord Dinham
1st of three husbands of Margaret de Hydon

The inquisitions post mortem for Sir Josce ['Joyce de Dynham'] include:
' Cornwall. Inq. 20 June, 29 Edw. I.
Cardynan. The manor...including two birds' worth 6d. at Michaelmas,
the pasture of Greneburgh, land in Treuerdre, lands held by the prior
of Trewerdray and 6s. 8d. rent for the moor of Fouwy, held of the king
in chief, together with the manors of Botardel and Douneghny in the
same county, by the service of 32 little knights' fees.'[9]
[cited in brief by Dugdale, Baronage of England[10]]

Sir Peter de Fissacre, uncle of Margaret de Hydon, was Attorney of Oliver
de Dinham (father of Josce de Dinham), 5 April 1297; and of Josce
("Joceus") de Dinham, 25 March 1300/01 [Knights II:27, cites P.R.[3]]

Spouse: Sir Josce de Dinham
Birth: bef 26 Feb 1274[5],[10]
Death: 30 Mar 1300[5]
Father: Sir Oliver de Dinham (<1234-1298)
Mother: NN
Marr: bef 24 Mar 1292[3]

Children: Sir John (1295-<1332)
Oliver (-1346)


1.2.3.1.1 Sir John de Dinham
----------------------------------------
Birth: 14 Sep 1295[5]
Death: bef 15 Apr 1332[5]
Occ: Lord Dinham

of Hartland,co. Devon, Buckland Denham, co. Somerset and Cardinham,
Cornwall[5]
3rd Lord Dinham

* previously identified as son of another marriage of Sir Josce de Dinham
(resolved, based on marriage of Sir Josce de Dinham and Margaret de Hydon
in or before 1292, and his birth in 1295)

Spouse: Margaret
Death: bef 22 Apr 1362[5]
Marr: ca 1310[5]

Children: Joan (<1311-)
John (<1318-1382)


1.2.3.1.1.1 Joan de Dinham
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 7 Jul 1311[5]


1.2.3.1.1.2 John de Dinham
----------------------------------------
Death: 7 Jan 1382, murdered (robbery)[11],[5]
Birth: bef 14 Apr 1318[5]
Occ: Lord Dinham

knight, of Hartland, Devon, Buckland Denham, Somerset and Cardinham, Cornwall
4th Lord Dinham
had livery of his father's lands followng the King taking his homage,
12 May 1340

'Johannes Dynham', heir of his grandmother Margaret (de Hydon) (de Dinham)
(de Knoville) d'Uvedale [CP IV:372 note (e), cites Ch. Inq.p.m., Edw. III,
file 137, no. 13, IPM of 'Margareta Dynham' aka 'Margareta Douvedale'[5]]
had livery of the manors of Buckland Denham and Harpford which his mother
had held in dower, 22 Apr 1362[5]

heir of his cousin Margaret de Dinham

Spouse: Muriel de Courtenay
Death: bef 12 Aug 1369[11]
Father: Sir Thomas de Courtenay (-1356)
Mother: Muriel de Moels (ca1322-)

Children: John (ca1360-1428)


1.2.3.1.1.2.1a John Dinham*[12]
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1360[5]
Death: 25 Dec 1428[5]
Occ: Lord Dinham

knight, of Hartland, Devon, Buckland Denham, Somerset and Cardinham, Cornwall
5th Lord Dinham
received the King's pardon 16 Mar 1382/83 for having killed Robert Tuwyng
and capturing and imprisoning John Broun, notorious thieves, after their
conviction for murdering his father [Brown taken from the Cathedral Church
of Exeter where he fled for sanctuary after escaping Ilchester gaol]
inherited manors of Kingskerswell, Devon [MOELS]; Dunterton, Devon and
Cricket Malherbe, Somerset [COURTENAY] - as given in order to the
escheator, Calendar of Close Rolls dated 19 Feb 1381[13]
held heir to uncle Hugh Courtenay, per Inq.p.m. 1369[5]

had royal confirmation of charters for a market and fair at Hartland
(originally granted to his great-great-grandfather Oliver de Dinham):
'M[ercatum] (Charter) Tues; gr[anted] 3 Jul 1281, by K[ing] Edw[ard] I to
Oliver de Dynam. To be held at the manor of Herctone (CChR, 1257–1300,
p. 253).

On 9 May 1393, K Ric II confirmed to John Dynham, kinsman and heir of
Oliver Dynham, now tenant of the manor, the grant of a market to Oliver
Dynham in 1281 (CPR, 1391–6, p. 262).'[14]

had royal confirmation of the market and fair at Buckland Denham:
'On 9 May 1393, K Ric II confirmed the market to John Dynham, kinsman and
heir of Geoffrey, now tenant of the manor (CPR, 1391-6, p. 262).'[14]

Spouse: Ellen[5] [1st wife]
Marr: bef 3 Feb 1379[5]

Children: Muriel

Other Spouses Maud Mautravers, Philippe Lovel


1.2.3.1.1.2.1a.1 Muriel Dinham[15],[12]
----------------------------------------

'Meryell doughter to John Denham'[HSP 16:154-156, Vis. of Yorkshire:
pedigree of Hastynges[12]]

identification as daughter of John, Lord Dinham and his first wife Ellen
by John Ravilious ('Re: Dinham/Courtenay Correction', Society of Medieval
Genealogy, www.rootsweb.com, 1 June 2001][16]

previous publications indicated in error that she was daughter of John,
Lord Dinham (d. 1382) and his wife Muriel de Courtenay [see Faris, p.
130][17]

1st wife of Edward Hastings[5]

Spouse: Edward Hastings[12], knight, of Elsing, Gressenhall and Weasenham,
Norfolk, Fenwick, co. York
Birth: bef 22 May 1382, Fenwick[5]
Death: 6 Jan 1437, prob. in the Marshalsea prison[5]
Father: Sir Hugh Hastings (-1386)
Mother: Anne le Despenser (-1426)
Marr: bef 1412[5]

Children: John (<1411-1477)


1.2.3.1.1.2.1b John Dinham* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Maud Mautravers[5] [2nd wife]
Death: ca 1 Nov 1402, d.s.p.[5]
Marr: bef 26 Nov 1396[5]


1.2.3.1.1.2.1c John Dinham* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Philippe Lovel [3rd wife]
Death: 15 May 1465[5]

Children: Sir John (ca1405-1457)


1.2.3.1.1.2.1c.1 Sir John Dinham
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1405[5]
Death: 25 Jan 1457[5]
Occ: Lord Dinham

6th Lord Dinham


1.2.3.1.2 Oliver de Dinham
----------------------------------------
Death: 1346, d.v.m.[10],[7]

of Sampford-Peverell, co. Devon

identified in Dugdale[10] and CP (Vol. IV, p. 373n)[5]

younger son; possibly intended to inherit lands of his mother Margaret
de Hydon (he d.v.m.)[7]

Children: Oliver (<1325-1351)


1.2.3.1.2.1 Oliver de Dinham
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 1325[10],[7]
Death: 29 Jun 1351[5],[10]

of Sampford-Peverell, co. Devon

re: his wife:

' ... a Joan de Briene married Oliver de Dynham, which Oliver,
who died 29 June 1351 (Ch. Inq.p.m., Edw. III, file 113,
no. 10) was s. and h. of another Oliver, yr. br. of the said
John de Dynham.' [CP IV:373n[5]]

re: the father of Joan de Briene, or Bryan:

'Sir Guy de Bryan, guardian of the heir of Sir Oliver de Dynham', held
the manor and advowson of Moreleigh, 1359 [F. B. Prideaux, Gen. Mag.
VII:537, cites Episcopal Registers of Exeter[2]]

Spouse: Joan de Briene[10]
Father: Sir Guy de Briene

Children: Oliver (<1345-<1357)
Margaret (<1348-)
Elene (<1350-)
Isabell (<1349-)


1.2.3.1.2.1.1 Oliver de Dinham
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 29 Jun 1345[10]
Death: bef 15 May 1357, d.s.p.[10]


1.2.3.1.2.1.2 Margaret de Dinham
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 15 May 1348[10],[7]

of Moreleigh, Devon[2]

heiress of her great-grandmother Margaret de Hydon

her grandfather 'Sir Guy de Bryan, guardian of the heir of Sir Oliver
de Dynham', held the manor and advowson of Moreleigh, 1359 [F. B. Prideaux,
Gen. Mag. VII:537, cites Episcopal Registers of Exeter[2]]

she held manors of Hemyock and Hydon, co. Devon[10],[7]

her heir was found to be her cousin John, Lord Dinham[5]

re: her husband:

'Sir William Asthorpe (he was the husband of Margaret, daughter of Oliver
de Dynham)', held the manor and advowson of Moreleigh, 1391 [F. B.
Prideaux, Gen. Mag. VII:537, cites Episcopal Registers of Exeter[2]]

DD/P/CD/158 - date: 12 Apr 1401
Gift: Alan Benet rector of Morelegh, William Rodewell rector of Hemyok,
John Acherd rector of Hydon and John Wresill to William Palton son and
heir of Sir Robert Palton, Nicholas Forde rector of Corescombe and
William Redford:-- manor of Camelerton and Doultyng, co. Somerset, with
the advowson of Camelerton, the rents and services of all tenants there
both free and villem, wards, marriages, reliefs, and escheats of all
free tenants holding by knight's service. Which they had of the gift
of Sir William Hasthorp--:
Seals, 1 and 2 missing: 3, a saltire; 4, a winged bull.' - PRO,
Nottinghamshire Archives: Portland of Welbeck: Cavendish Deeds[18]

Spouse: Sir William Asthorpe[10]


1.2.3.1.2.1.3 Elene de Dinham
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 15 May 1350[10],[7]


1.2.3.1.2.1.4 Isabell de Dinham
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 15 May 1349[10],[7]

d. a nun at Walton[10]

1. C. Demain-Saunders, "The Early Maynards of Devon and St. Albans," The
Genealogists' Magazine, Vol. 6, No. 12, Dec. 1934, pp. 591 et seq.,
provides citations and extracts from Feet of Fines, Devon and Somerset
Deeds & c.
2. Col. F. B. Prideaux, "Notes and News ('with regard to the pedigree of
Fishacre, Genealogists' Magazine, Vol. 6, p. 626')," The Genealogists'
Magazine, Vol. 7, No. 10, June, 1937, pp. 536-7, provides citation
from an Assize of Mort' Ancestor (late Edw. III) to recover
possession of the manor of Morelegh.
3. "Knights of Edward I," Rev. Charles Moor, D.D., F.S.A., Pubs. of the
Harleian Society, 1929-1930, 3 Vols. (Vols. 80-83 in series).
4. "Brixham Heritage Database," Brixham Lay Subsidy of 1332,
http://www.brixhamheritage.org.uk/services/data23.htm
5. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the
United Kingdom.
6. "Devon Manors: Tiverton Hundred,"
www.mortimer.co.uk/manors/hemyock.htm
7. John P. Ravilious, "Correction to CP: Dinham, Lord Dinham," May 16,
2002, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
8. "Devonshire Manors in the Domesday Book,"
www.hemyockcastle.co.uk/
9. "Inquisitions Post Mortem," Vol. Edward I, pp. 22-25 for 'Joyce de
Dynham', p. 25 for 'John de Bella Acqua', scanned images provided by
Rosie Bevan, email: rbe...@paradise.net.nz.
10. "The Baronage of England," William Dugdale, Norroy King of Arms, Tho.
Newcomb [reprint Georg Verlag, New York], London, 1675 [reprint New
York, 1977].
11. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215,"
Baltimore: Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David
Faris).
12. "The Visitation of Yorkshire," Harleian Soc., William Flower, Esquire,
Norroy King of Arms, Harleian Series, Vol. 16, Mitchell and Hughes,
Printers, London, 1881, pp. 154-156: pedigree of Hastings of Elsing
('Hastynges..' of Fenwick, co. Yorks.), 'The Visitation of Yorkshire in
the Years 1563 and 1564'.
13. Brad Verity, "Grenvilles of Devon Pt. 2," June 1, 2001,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
14. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516," www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
15. David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists,"
Baltimore: the Genealogical Pub. Company, 1st ed.
16. John P. Ravilious, "Re: Dinham/Courtenay Correction," 1 June 2001,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
17. David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists,"
Boston: New England Historic Genealogical Society, 1999, (2nd edition,
1999).
18. "Public Record Office Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
19. Ronny Bodine, "Champernoun of Modbury, Devonshire -Part 1 of 2,"
Jan 30, 1999, paper copy: library of John P. Ravilious.


* John P. Ravilious

John Ravilious

unread,
Feb 1, 2004, 8:32:54 PM2/1/04
to
Sunday, 1 February, 2004


Hello All,

An article by C. Demain-Saunders in The Genealogists' Magazine
(Dec. 1934) on 'The Early Maynards of Devon and St. Albans' includes
related information on the Lords Dinham, ca. 1400, and (not shown as
directly related) the family of Fissacre, or Fishacre, of Fishacre,
Wadeton and Moreleigh, Devon [1]. Due to a number of errors in this
article with regard to the Fissacre family, Colonel F. B. Prideaux
wrote a reply correcting and expanding on the subject in a
subsequent issue, as follows:

' Colonel F. B. Prideaux writes with regard to the pedigree of

Fishacre, Genealogists&#8217; Magazine, Vol. 6, p. 626:


" Miss Demain Saunders would appear to have overlooked a
quotation given by Sir William Pole in his Collections
Towards a Description of the County of Devon - see p. 300
of the edition published by a descendant of Sir William
in 1791. The quotation says that Alice (wife of John
Ufflet) and Joan (wife of 1. John Holwey and of 2. John
Maynard) were daughters and co-heirs, not, as Miss
Saunders supposed, of Sir Martin Fishacre of Morlegh, but
of that Sir Martin who was of Fishacre and Wadeton, the
son of Ivo; this quotation was given without naming the
source from which Pole had it, but it was clearly taken,
judging from its language, from a record, still existent

in 1631, of an Assise of Mort&#8217; Ancestor brought by the
sisters or their guardian late in Edward III&#8217;s time

William de Morlegh held 4 knights&#8217; fees in 1242 (Testa


de N.). In 1284-6 Peter de Fishacre held these estates.

I suggest that Margaret&#8217;s mother was the sister of

1. William Asfordby

2. William Bladen

5. William Farrar

6. Mary Launce

8. William Skepper

9. Maria Johanna Somerset


Cheers,

John *

_____________________________________________________


NOTES


_________________________________________________

of Coomb Fishacre, Devon

Children: William

Children: Ivo (->1331)

Children: Sir Martin

Children: Alice
Joan

Spouse: John Ufflet

Children: William


1.1.1.1.1.1.2a.1 William Holway
----------------------------------------

heir of his mother

of Moreleigh, Devon

of Moreleigh, Devon

of Moreleigh, Devon

Children: Margaret (-1357)

Children: John (ca1360-1428)

Oliver de Dynam. To be held at the manor of Herctone (CChR, 1257&#8211;1300,
p. 253).

On 9 May 1393, K Ric II confirmed to John Dynham, kinsman and heir of
Oliver Dynham, now tenant of the manor, the grant of a market to Oliver

Dynham in 1281 (CPR, 1391&#8211;6, p. 262).'[14]

Sutliff

unread,
Feb 2, 2004, 2:04:27 AM2/2/04
to
John,

As this article refers primarily to the Maynard family and is based on the
early members of that family. May I ask how late the Maynard family is
carried down in the article? Does it make the descent as late as the 16th
century?

Thanks,

Hap


<The...@aol.com> wrote in message news:1d4.19970f...@aol.com...

> Oliver de Dynam. To be held at the manor of Herctone (CChR, 1257-1300,


> p. 253).
>
> On 9 May 1393, K Ric II confirmed to John Dynham, kinsman and heir of
> Oliver Dynham, now tenant of the manor, the grant of a market to Oliver

> Dynham in 1281 (CPR, 1391-6, p. 262).'[14]

John Ravilious

unread,
Feb 2, 2004, 6:48:32 AM2/2/04
to
Monday, 2 February, 2004


Dear Hap,

The article extends at least 36 pages (pp. 591-627, and somewhere
beyond). Of this, I have a total of 10 pages (as relate to Dinham and
Fissacre). Unless someone else has an opportunity before, I will try
to remember to get the full article when next possible (prob. early
May).

That being said, I have enough from the article to guess that
insufficient evidence is given for a connection:

p. 624 'A succession of Maynards are mentioned in the Tavistock
Records collected by R. N. Worth, F.S.A., as follows:-

1402. John Maynarde of Langeforde (a hamlet between
Tavistock and Lamerton).
John Maynarde of Bremeham.
.......
1502. "Memoranda of a Byll, signed by John Maynarde,
late
Warden."

After this date the name of Maynarde does not reappear
until 1651. '

Not very promising, I fear.....

John

DP...@aol.com

unread,
Feb 2, 2004, 3:35:44 PM2/2/04
to
Dear John:

       I may have missed part of the
earlier discussion of this publication
due to AOL's lapse: if so, I apologize.

       I'm curious, is this the (originally)
Cornish Fissacre family, with supposed
twelfth century ties to Hugh de Morville,
Becket's murderer ?

       Thanks,  and best regards,


                                  Steve

Doug Smith

unread,
Feb 2, 2004, 6:39:29 PM2/2/04
to
Hi John

The Mandeville you are looking for would appear to be Walter de
Mandeville of Luton, Beds. See KEI, VOl. I, p 103.

Doug Smith

Louise Staley

unread,
Feb 2, 2004, 8:39:18 PM2/2/04
to
Dear Doug,

Is this post meant to belong in the concurrent Babington/Giffard thread as
Walter Mandeville identified as the husband of Alice Giffard?

Also what is KEI please?

thanks
Louise

Robert O'Connor

unread,
Feb 3, 2004, 3:08:54 AM2/3/04
to
Dear John

Thank you most sincerely for your continued excellent work on the Dinham
family and related families.

I wonder if you have encounted a John Dinham whose daughter Elizabeth,
according to Hutchins 'History of Dorset', married Reginald Hody, of
Pilsdon, Dorset (Died before 1522, vp) son of Sir William Hody, Chief Baron
of the Exchequer (Died 1524).

Regards
Robert


Robert O'Connor

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Feb 3, 2004, 3:08:54 AM2/3/04
to

Robert O'Connor

unread,
Feb 3, 2004, 3:08:54 AM2/3/04
to

Doug Smith

unread,
Feb 3, 2004, 5:54:13 AM2/3/04
to
"Louise Staley" <car...@bigpond.com.au> wrote in message news:<aZCTb.40247$Wa....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...

> Dear Doug,
>
> Is this post meant to belong in the concurrent Babington/Giffard thread as
> Walter Mandeville identified as the husband of Alice Giffard?
>
> Also what is KEI please?
>
> thanks

Oops!

> Louise
>
> > Doug Smith wrote:


> > Hi John
> >
> > The Mandeville you are looking for would appear to be Walter de

> > Mandeville of Luton, Beds. See KEI (Knights of Edward I), Vol. I, p 103.
> >
> > Doug Smith


Sorry was too rushed.

Doug

The...@aol.com

unread,
Feb 3, 2004, 6:41:31 AM2/3/04
to
Tuesday, 3 February, 2004


Dear Louise (and Doug, et al.),

The Walter de Mandeville that Doug referred to would be the
brother of Sibyl (de Mandeville) de Bodrugan, as given in the
chart in the first post in this thread(taken from Cam's GM
article). "KEI" would be 'Knights of Edward I' [the Harleian
Series, vols. 80-84].

Just another quick ref. I went back to Chris Phillips' site
to see the list of individuals mentioned in the will of Bishop
Godfrey Giffard [1]. This list includes (in part):

'Alexandro de Frivill ' [nephew of the Bishop; not so
identified]

'Johanni Giffard, nepoti meo' [son of William; of Weston sub
Edge]

'Ricardus de Babintone ' [son of the deceased Hugh de
Babington; great-nephew of
the Bishop [2], not so identified]

'Sibille de Bodaringham, nepti
mee ... et viro suo ' [Sibyl de Mandeville, niece of
the Bishop and wife of Henry de
Bodrugan]

'domine Johanni, uxori domini
Alexandri Frivill ' [Joan de Cromwell, wife of Sir
Alexander Freville, above]

Given that Sir Alexander Freville did not (for some reason)
receive recognition as 'nepos meus' in the will, it seems less
problematic that the young Richard de Babington likewise (as great-
nephew) was no so identified.

Perhaps Doug or another individual could post more of the details
concerning Walter de Mandeville from 'KEI' ....? Resolving this
Giffard-de Mandeville connection would be most helpful.

Cheers,

John *

NOTES

[1] Notes on the will of Godfrey Giffard, Bishop of Worcester:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/families/giffard/godfrey.shtml

[2] See current SGM thread, <Re: Sir Hugh de Babington (d. 1296) and
William Giffard, Archbp. of York>

* John P. Ravilious

Doug Smith

unread,
Feb 3, 2004, 5:44:47 PM2/3/04
to
The...@aol.com wrote in message news:<12d.3a3c89...@aol.com>...
> Tuesday, 3 February, 2004
>
>
> Dear John& Louise et al.,

KEI Vol., I, p 103 "His wife Sibyl, 24, is sis. h. of Walt. de
Mandevill, who held lands at Luton, Beds. (Inq. 26 Oct. 1288)." It
also refers to "John, s. h. of her former husband, Peter le Power" on
p 104. Also, his "s . h Otho, 18-19" p 104. So Henry's son Otho was
aged 18-19 when Henry died abt 1309. Henry's inq. was dated 4 Mar.
1310.

Doug

>
>

Richard C. Browning, Jr.

unread,
Feb 3, 2004, 7:54:21 PM2/3/04
to
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The...@aol.com [mailto:The...@aol.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 05:41
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Ancestry of the Lords Dinham: Fiss(h)acre of
> Morleigh, Devon
>

<Snip>

> Perhaps Doug or another individual could post more of
> the details concerning Walter de Mandeville from 'KEI' ....?
> Resolving this Giffard-de Mandeville connection would be
> most helpful.
>
> Cheers,
>
>

<Re-Snip>

* John P. Ravilious

John, et al.

Sorry to disappoint, but Knights of Edward I (Vol III. Ppg 103 - 106)
does not have a separate entry for Walter. And yes the de Mandeville
entries start on pg 103 of Vol III, nice coincidence here.


Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Grand Prairie, TX

Louise Staley

unread,
Feb 3, 2004, 11:19:04 PM2/3/04
to
Dear John et al.,

Back of the beginning of this thread John Ravilious wrote:

"1.2.1 Sir Peter de Fissacre
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1312, d.s.p.[2]

of Moreleigh, Devon

Attorney of Oliver de Dinham, 5 April 1297; and of his son Josce ("Joceus")
de Dinham, 25 March 1300/01 [Knights II:27, cites P.R.[3]]

'Sir Peter de Fishacre', held the manor and advowson of Moreleigh, 1299;
1313 [F. B. Prideaux, Gen. Mag. VII:537, cites Episcopal Registers of
Exeter[2]]

2nd husband of Isabel de Okeston[19]

" Fishacre, Sr Peter de, Kt.
Com'r in Devon 4 June 1291 and 1292. Attorney of Oliver de Dynham 5 Ap.
1297, and of Joceus de Dynham 25 Mar. 1301 (P.R.). Having L20 lands in
Corn., sum'd to serve overseas 7 Jy. 1297, and to Council at Rochester
8 Sep. 1297 (P.W.). Sr Peter de Fishacre, Kt., witnesses charter re
lands at Ermington, Devon, 13 Sep. 1301 (Cart.R.). Peter de Fissake holds
1/2 Kt. Fee at Inheswork, Corn., late of Edm., E. of Cornwall, 26 Sep.
1300 (Inq.). Sum'd from Devon to serve agst. Scots 24 June 1301 (P.W.)."
[Knights II:27[3]]

Spouse: Joan de Okeston [widow of Sir Richard de Champernoun]"

It appears Joan was not an Okeston (Oxton) but the granddaughter of King
John I 'Lackland'.

Way back in the primodeal beginnings of SGM on 1 Aug 1995, taf wrote:

"RICHARD DE CHAMBERNOUN, second son, was granted Modbury, co.Devon, and
Inceworth, co. Cornwall in right of his wife. He married Joan,
(half-)sister of James de Okeston (Oxton) of Modbury. Joan's mother, also
named Joan, and widow of Sir Reginald de Valletort, married secondly
Alexander de Oxton, but was mistress of RICHARD (258-27), Earl of Cornwall.
Pole (p. 309) reports a grant of 1284/5 in which Joan, wife of Richard
Champernoun, is called "sister" by Edmund, Earl of Cornwall, legit. son of
the Earl Richard, which appears to be conclusive evidence of her being
illegitimate daughter of RICHARD (258-27). For a discussion of her
paternity see: DCNQ xviii:108-112, and xix:319-321, and Cornwall Feet of
Fines, p. 121-2."

I have seen nothing to disprove the earl of Cornwall link and I offer it as
a further link in putting the full picture of the Fissacre descendants
together.

regards

Louise

Todd A. Farmerie

unread,
Feb 3, 2004, 11:49:28 PM2/3/04
to
Louise Staley wrote:
> Way back in the primodeal beginnings of SGM on 1 Aug 1995, taf wrote:

When Louise does an archive dive, she needs SCUBA gear she goes
so deep. :)

> "RICHARD DE CHAMBERNOUN, second son, was granted Modbury, co.Devon, and
> Inceworth, co. Cornwall in right of his wife. He married Joan,
> (half-)sister of James de Okeston (Oxton) of Modbury. Joan's mother, also
> named Joan, and widow of Sir Reginald de Valletort, married secondly
> Alexander de Oxton, but was mistress of RICHARD (258-27), Earl of Cornwall.
> Pole (p. 309) reports a grant of 1284/5 in which Joan, wife of Richard
> Champernoun, is called "sister" by Edmund, Earl of Cornwall, legit. son of
> the Earl Richard, which appears to be conclusive evidence of her being
> illegitimate daughter of RICHARD (258-27). For a discussion of her
> paternity see: DCNQ xviii:108-112, and xix:319-321, and Cornwall Feet of
> Fines, p. 121-2."
>
> I have seen nothing to disprove the earl of Cornwall link and I offer it as
> a further link in putting the full picture of the Fissacre descendants
> together.

John Benson, who published repeatedly in D&CN&Q in the first half
of the 20th century put forward two arguments against this
connection. One of them was that the Cornwall connection
actually came to the Champernowne family in the next generation -
Joan's son Richard married a Vautort, (Valletort) and her
sister used a heraldic seal that included the arms of the ancient
Earldom of Cornwall (that of Empress Matilda's brother, which was
distinct from that used by Earl Richard). This argument fails
(rather miserably, in fact). Just because the younger Richard
Champernowne married a descendant of the earlier Earls has no
bearing on whether or not his mother descended from Richard.
Elsewhere, Benson suggested that the grant in question was an
indication of the off-colour humour of Earl Edmund - that he was
just yanking the chain of Richard in indicating that his mother
in law had been Edmund's father's honey. I find this explanation
wanting. I find it hard to accept that he would include such
ribaldry in a legal document. Thus I think Benson can be set
aside here.

The major flaw in the descent (if that is the right term for it)
is that Pole's document is, apparently, since lost, and thus it
is possible that the relational statement was not in the original
document, but rather was interpolated by Pole based on less
trustworthy information. However, again, I find this unlikely,
and will consider this royal connection proven, unless and until
contrary evidence surfaces.

taf

John Ravilious

unread,
Feb 4, 2004, 5:24:08 AM2/4/04
to
Wednesday, 4 January, 2004


Dear Richard,

Thanks for that kind 'KEI' checkup. I may be building a separate
list concerning entries from KEI, incl. your prior extracts for
Babington and Giffard, with an eye to identifying errors and
conflations. Those were much appreciated.

A quick question (prob. with quick answer....). I know that
among the many positive things about that series, the editor evidently
took great pains to gather entries on individuals together no matter
what the spelling of the surname, so that one usually need not look
for 'de la Zouche' family members under 'Susche' or 'Souche', &c.
It's also possibly that Walter de Mandeville of Bedfordshire was not a
knight.

On the off chance this was not the case, however, is there
possibly any entry under the spellings Amundeville/Amundvilla or
'Magnaville/Magnavilla ?

Many thanks,

John


P.S. - I may be building a separate list concerning entries from KEI,
incl.
your prior extracts for Babington and Giffard, with an eye to
identifying errors and conflations. Those were much
appreciated.


bro...@anet-dfw.com ("Richard C. Browning, Jr.") wrote in message news:<001501c3eaba$21bee0c0$8a0c020a@MyNotbook>...

John Ravilious

unread,
Feb 4, 2004, 5:31:44 AM2/4/04
to
Wednesday, 4 January, 2004


Dear Steve,

I'm not aware of any specific Cornish connection for this
particular family; the information I have (which is in fact what I
have to date) starts with Martin de Fissacre of Coomb Fishacre, Devon,
who lived during the reign of King John ["temp. King John" - Gen. Mag.
VI:624]. I am familiar with the Morville and FitzUrse families, but
have seen no prior reference to a Fissacre or Fishacre involvement in
the Canterbury tale [of Becket].

Could you provide more information concerning these 'Finisterre
Fissacres' you mentioned?

Cheers,

John

DP...@aol.com wrote in message news:<42.459de30...@aol.com>...

DP...@aol.com

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Feb 4, 2004, 6:30:11 AM2/4/04
to
Dear John:

The only reference I've seen to the
alleged Fissacre links with de Morville is
in a Devon online library catalog of local
families' history:


"CORNWALL. FAMILIES. Morville Family. Genealogy.

Morris, G.T.Windyer: The family of de Fissacre and the murderers of
Thomas a Becket. - Dev. & Cor. N. & Q. ; 14:2 , 1926. - 68-70. -
Refers
to vol.13, pp.232, 268; vol.14, p.14."


Presumably this is based on the assertion by
two nineteenth-century Cornwall county histories
that Hugh de Morville, Becket's murderer, was the
original holder of the manor of Morval in Cornwall.

Probably all of this is completely spurious:
but I wondered if you'd possibly seen the articles
referred to above (as I haven't), and could give a
characterization of their reliability.


Best regards, Steve


The...@aol.com

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Feb 4, 2004, 7:13:35 AM2/4/04
to
Wednesday, 4 January, 2004


Dear Steve,

The 'Devon and Cornwall Notes and Queries' article you cite is in a
group of bound periodicals that LOC has yet to find on a shelf - evidently looking
on the floor is beneath the staff, in more ways than one.

As with my prior post, if anyone with access to the 1925-26 D&C N&Q
series of articles on de Fissacre, evidence concerning that family (incl. re: the
manor of Morleigh, Devon) may yet be helpful.

Thanks,

John

Ivor West

unread,
Feb 4, 2004, 1:54:55 PM2/4/04
to
From notes I took a few years ago, the Hugh Watkin article did not add
much to what is already known of Fishacre. He showed that Osbert de
Wadeton held in 1166, presumably from the Black Book for Devon, but
made the mistake of saying that Margaret, the daughter and heir of
Martin Fishacre, took Morleigh to John Dinham.

One of the knight's fees which Isabel de Wadeton brought to Martin
Fishacre consisted of the manors of Aleburn (Lower Yalberton),
Waddeton, Dynenthon (?Dennington) and Rauleston (?Rowelstone). Martin
also held one fifth of a fee in Morval, Cornwall, which, because of
the homophonic similarity, led to the speculation that it was somehow
connected with Morville.

More intriguing, however, is that Watkin recorded that
Hingeston-Randolph had referred to documents called the Fishacre MSS.
Watkin had been unable to locate the MSS and wondered if they might be
held in Exeter Cathedral library.

Ivor West

<The...@aol.com> wrote in message news:da.28a410...@aol.com...

DP...@aol.com

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Feb 4, 2004, 2:28:28 PM2/4/04
to
Thanks, Ivor:

I suspected the Morval, Cornwall-
Hugh de Morville link was probably based
on not much more than folk-etymology.

Presumably residents of Morval
(or Morville, Shropshire) could be and
were legitimately styled "de Morvil:"
so probably it was inevitable that the
coincidence of names should result
in this kind of red-herring. Thanks
for helping to scotch it.

Best regards, Steve

Louise Staley

unread,
Feb 4, 2004, 5:14:48 PM2/4/04
to
> Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
> > Louise Staley wrote:
> > Way back in the primodeal beginnings of SGM on 1 Aug 1995, taf wrote:
>
> When Louise does an archive dive, she needs SCUBA gear she goes
> so deep. :)

Like most things, if one is going to data mine, it is better to do it
properly or not at all. :-)


Doug Smith

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Feb 4, 2004, 7:17:33 PM2/4/04
to
the...@aol.com (John Ravilious) wrote in message news:<55712d2e.04020...@posting.google.com>...

> Wednesday, 4 January, 2004
>
>
> Dear Richard,
> [snip snip]

> On the off chance this was not the case, however, is there
> possibly any entry under the spellings Amundeville/Amundvilla or
> 'Magnaville/Magnavilla ?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> John
>
>

> Hi John,

Re: above, I looked and couldn't find any.

Doug

Doug Smith

unread,
Feb 4, 2004, 7:21:38 PM2/4/04
to
> Hi John

On the off chance this was not the case, however, is there
> possibly any entry under the spellings Amundeville/Amundvilla or
> 'Magnaville/Magnavilla ?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> John

Re: above, I looked and couldn't find any.

Doug Smith

Richard C. Browning, Jr.

unread,
Feb 4, 2004, 7:56:06 PM2/4/04
to
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Ravilious [mailto:the...@aol.com]

<Snip>


> On the off chance this was not the case, however, is there
> possibly any entry under the spellings Amundeville/Amundvilla or
> 'Magnaville/Magnavilla ?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> John
>

John,

Under Amundeville/Amundvilla/Mundeville, no Walter, only Ralph, two
Richards and a Lady Nichola de Mundevill

No entries for Magnaville/Magnavilla.

Sorry.

John Ravilious

unread,
Feb 4, 2004, 9:58:57 PM2/4/04
to
Wednesday, 4 February, 2004


Dear Ivor,

Many thanks for those details from your notes on the Watkin
article: this does seem to end my speculation that there might be
more details worth seeking in the article (beyond what you have
provided).

The Demain-Saunders article on the Maynards I cited in the first
post of this thread, as I mentioned, provided some helpful information
on the Fissacre family (with Col. Prideaux' expansion on same taken
into account). In addition, there was the following chart provided on
p. 626 of that article [Gen. Mag. VI:626] - complete with errors, as
you will note:

__________________________________________________________________

" CHART V

FISSACRE FISHACRE

Sir William Pole of Shute (quoted in Polwhele's Hist. of Devon) says
:

The family of Fishacre flourished in Devon from the time of Henry II
onwards.

Sir Martin Fishacre = Isabel, dau. and heiress of
of Coombe Fishacre I William de Wadeton
(temp. K. John) I (i.e. Stoke Gabriel)
__________________________I_________________________
I I
William of Coombe Fishacre Peter of Morleigh
(temp. Ed. I) (temp. Ed. I)
________________________________I
I
Martin of Morleigh = Agnes, dau. of William
Speke
I of Evelegh and his wife
_____________I Agnes, dau. of Thos.
Orchard
I of Orchard, nr. Taunton
_________________I____________________
I I
Alice, wife of 1) John Holway = Joanna = 2) John
Maynard
John Ufflet I (alive 1401)
_______I . . . . . .
I .
William Holway Joanna
= John Speccot
(ob. 1460)

Alice Ufflet had the manor of Evelegh,
Joanna had Wadeton.
"

________________________________________________________________


I wonder if the 'Fishacre MSS.' Watkin referred to might be
mentioned (or more fully extracted from) in Polwhele's History of
Devon. If the above chart is truly extracted from same, the
chronological problems shown therein (the issue of Isabel de Wadeton
shown as living 'temp. Ed. I') and the previously discussed conflation
of Sir Martin de Fissacre of Fissacre (father of Isabel and Joan) with
Sir Martin of Morleigh (their 1st cousin, 4x removed) are either very
poor readings from same, or the MSS. itself is likely of little
further value.

Grazie mille,

John

"Ivor West" <i...@threeuk.com> wrote in message news:<107592068...@doris.uk.clara.net>...

Mark Harry

unread,
Feb 10, 2004, 4:21:14 AM2/10/04
to
I have got Champernowne ancestry, but to date I have not located any
contemporary document that confirms the connection to earl Richard.
What we do know for certain is that later generations of that family
had a strong tradition that he was their forebear, although there was
confusion around the details, as the visitation pedigrees and
pedigrees recorded by both Westcote and Pole suggest.
It could be that the family had descents from both earls Richard and
Rainald (brother of Matilda)
Frances Rose-Troup though wrote an article in DATR which convinced me
that Joan junior, wife of Richard C could not be an illegitimate
daughter of anybody, because she and her second husband Peter de
Fishacre put in a claim to Modbury on the fine dated 1316 by which
James de Oxton transferred the same to Richard C. Rose-Troup instead
suggested that Joan senior, the wife of Alexander Okeston might have
been the earl's daughter, and this is the theory I have adopted
pending further evidence on the subject.
Significantly Risdon says the same thing. From memory Benson thought
Risdon's remark was a misquoate of Pole. Perhaps it was not!
Elsewhere Risdon says the earl gave various rights together with his
daughter in marriage to Ralph de Valletort. It would be interesting to
know if this last statement was based on contemporary documents, but
iunfortunately he does not state his source.
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